THE NEW TRANSSEXUALS

Laverne Cox

Producer & Actress

Photo: Dan Hallman

George Petros: WELL, LAVERNE, YOU’RE NOTED FOR YOUR REALITY TV SHOWS — COULD TELL US ABOUT THAT?

Laverne Cox: In 2008 I became the first African-American Transsexual woman to appear on a Reality television show — and that Reality TV show was I Want To Work For Diddy — and on that show I was competing to be P. Diddy’s a.k.a. Puff Daddy’s a.k.a. Sean Combs’ personal assistant. I was eliminated, but that led to me getting a meeting with VH1 — the show was on VH1 — and they were interested in me doing my own show. We pitched — I have a producing partner named Eric Miclette — I got together with him and some other folks and we pitched a show that would become Transform Me, which was a makeover show where me and two other Transgender women, Nina Poon and Jamie Clayton, traveled around the country making over women who are not Transgendered, using what we’ve learned to transform ourselves.

IN AN AMBULANCE, RIGHT?

Laverne Cox: In an ambulance — we actually called it the “glambulance.” That evolved as we were shooting. A little silly. A little campy. But we had a lot of fun with the show. For me, with Transform Me, I always felt that most of us feel we have a person on the inside who the world doesn’t see on the outside, and it’s our work, ideally, to become integrated people — to have the person we are on the inside match the world view on the outside — and that’s exactly what Transgendered people do. For me, thinking of Transgendered people as the ultimate makeover was sort of a little high-concept. I don’t know. It was a concept for me to hopefully do more than a makeover show — what I was interested in was having real Transgendered people, Transsexual women, in the homes of people in Middle America. I think so many of the attitudes changed towards Gay and Lesbian people over the past several years. I think a lot of hearts and minds have been changed as a result of diverse, humanized representation of Gays and Lesbians in the media. Transgendered people aren’t there yet, but I see it as my life’s work — my life’s mission — to change the way in which Trans people are represented in the media, and to provide diverse, humanized representation of Trans folks. This is not just about me — even though I’m an actress and producer — having a platform. It’s about me spreading platforms to other Transgendered folks to tell their stories and hopefully have diverse audiences relate to those stories, because that really was what I was trying to do with Transform Me — but I also realized that representation of diverse people is incremental. I often look to the history of the representation of Gays and Lesbians and also, more specifically, of Black people — as a Black woman myself, I look to my Black history and think of how it took several decades for diverse humanized representation of Black people to be on television and in films. So, I realized we have a long way to go. For me, Transform Me was the first step. I look forward to continuing that mission as a producer. I got into producing as a vehicle for myself as an actress. I realized years ago, I’ve been acting since I was a kid. I actually have a background in Dance. I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in Dance. I started out as a dancer, but I always knew I would end up acting — but they’re not writing a lot of roles for Black Transsexuals, so I figured I’d have to find a way to create my own work.

I SEE. ARE YOU GLAD YOU DIDN’T GET THAT P. DIDDY GIG?

Laverne Cox: You know, I am. It was very clear that I’m trying to advance my career in the entertainment industry. I feel like I’ve won. So yeah, ultimately this is what it was about — advancing my career and being on that show completely changed the trajectory of my career. I’ve been acting forever. I’ve been in New York for a long time, over ten years. And I’ve been doing student films. I’ve been auditioning and training and doing little things here and there. So that got me the visibility that I hadn’t gotten until that point. I’m just trying to take it to the next level.

HOW DID YOU GET ALONG WITH THE OTHER CONTESTANTS ON THE SHOW?

Laverne Cox: Oh gosh. It feels like ancient history. It was fine. We won a Black Media award for the show, which I’m really proud of. For me as a Black woman and Trans woman, most of the discrimination I’ve gotten has been from other Black people. Verbally and outwardly. So politically, for me, I thought it was really important for me to go and win a contest where there were mostly Black people, or at least a Black mogul. I thought it was a really big revolutionary moment, in a small way. I got along with the other contestants. For the most part I got along with everyone, actually. Except there was this one guy, Boris, who had issues with me — but I try not to focus on people who have issues with me because it’s really none of my business what other people think about me.

THAT’S INTERESTING. WHERE WERE YOU BORN AND WHERE ARE YOU FROM AND ALL THAT?

Laverne Cox: I was born and raised in Mobile, Alabama and I moved to New York for college and stayed. I went to the Alabama School of Fine Arts in Birmingham, Alabama. So I’ve been performing and dancing my whole life, and it’s just all I’ve ever wanted to do. The gender stuff started — when I was a child I never really fit into the boy category. It was very painful. My refuge was performing. Generally, I didn’t have any friends, and no one really understood me. I always acted like a girl. My mom didn’t really get it even though she’s very supportive now. I have a wonderful relationship with her now — but she didn’t really understand it. She was working very hard. She was usually working two or three jobs to take care of me and my twin brother. But my refuge was really my imagination and performing. And I would always sort of have music in my head and would dance around all the time. And, the idea of getting out of Alabama, as soon as possible, was very motivating. I was aware that being what I was — and what I wanted to achieve — couldn’t happen in Mobile, Alabama. So that was also very motivating, and kept me going as a child. I was performing and achieving. I was getting really good grades at school and learning how to achieve — being quote-unquote successful within the school system, academically et cetera. It was also a source of empowerment for me, I guess. As a child, it was like, you know, you might not like me. You might call me a sissy or a fag or whatever — but I’m smart and I get good grades and I win public speaking contests and I win talent contests. I get scholarships here and scholarships there — and look at you.

NOT BAD.

Laverne Cox: You know, I was a kid.

IN THAT SITUATION YOU HAVE TO BE A PRETTY SCRAPPY KID, TO DEFEND YOURSELF. I BET SOMETIMES THOSE VERBAL TAUNTS TURNED PHYSICAL —

Laverne Cox: I was a very fast runner as a child. I was pretty much chased home from school every day. There were issues with my mother. I learned early on that I couldn’t really talk to my mother about it because she would always ask me why I didn’t fight back. I felt I was a bum — you know, having a scrapping or brawling in the school yard or whatever. I felt like I shouldn’t have to be subjected to that. So I learned that I really couldn’t go to my mother with it — and I ran really quickly. There were some times where the kids caught me — caught us — and we did get beaten up.

WHO IS “US”? YOU AND YOUR BROTHER?

Laverne Cox: My brother and me, yes.

DID YOUR BROTHER HAVE SIMILAR INCLINATIONS AS YOU?

Laverne Cox: My brother, he identifies as male. He’s in a relationship with a man — a monogamous relationship for the past eight years. He’s Goth, and into Punk Rock. Those are the things I feel comfortable saying about my brother. He identifies as male and he was assigned male genitals at birth.

SO HE’S INTO PUNK AND GOTH, RIGHT?

Laverne Cox: Yes, he still is.

HOW ABOUT YOU? WHAT DO YOU LISTEN TO?

Laverne Cox: As a kid, I was very into Top 40 and that sort of thing. When I went to art school — what was wonderful about being in an art school was that I absorbed so many different kinds of music and art. Any given week, I could go to an art show or go to an evening of one-acts or a music recital. I got into Classical Music when I was in high school. I got really into Opera. My brother actually sings operatically, but he sings his own compositions — and I studied Opera singing for about five years, myself. So I got really into Opera — and my idol was Leontyne Price — and I really got into some Jazz. Top 40 and then Classical Music, and some female Jazz vocalists were what I was into in high school.

IS THAT PRETTY MUCH STILL THE MIX YOU LISTEN TO?

Laverne Cox: Still pretty much. I’m still very Top 40 -oriented. I love Beyonce, Lady Gaga — although I feel like maybe later in the year I might not love her so much. I love Pop Music. I really love Pop Music. I still love Opera, I still love Classical singing. It’s endlessly fascinating to me and eventually I want to — even though I’m a bit of a hack — I want to explore that.

OKAY — SO THEN, YOU CAME TO NEW YORK ASAP, RIGHT?

Laverne Cox: Pretty much. Yeah. I came to New York ASAP. I had a detour to Indiana University — I studied there for a few years and transferred to Marymount Manhattan College and then finished and started exploring. I really started exploring the gender-bending stuff in high school. I started wearing make-up and wearing culottes. When I got to New York, I went for it even more. It sort of evolved from sort of an Androgynous thing — I had a lot of internalized Transphobia. As a child in third grade, my teacher called my mom and told her that I would end up in New Orleans wearing a dress if she didn’t get me into therapy right away. So the therapist asked me if I knew the difference between a boy and a girl — and at the time, I felt there was no difference between a boy and a girl, and I told this to the therapist. I was eight years old. I said, “Well, I don’t think there is a difference between a boy and a girl,” and in my eight-year-old mind I rationalized that everyone was telling me I was a boy — but I felt like I was a girl inside, so there couldn’t be any difference. Even though I had a penis, I felt like a girl — and I was a girl, in my mind. So, I didn’t think there was a difference. And that became a problem. I thought that there would be doctor-patient privilege. But there wasn’t, and the therapist told my mom, and there was a lot of yelling and reinforcing of the gender-binary models. That’s the way I like to put it: Reinforcing the oppression of the gender-binary model. If I write a book, I can use terms like “the oppression of the gender-binary model” — but when you’re on television or doing interviews for a radio show, that terminology isn’t sound-bitey enough.

RIGHT.

Laverne Cox: So, after that session with the therapist, there was this enforcing of the oppression of the gender-binary model from my mother. As a result, I internalized even more shame about the way I felt — and so the whole idea of me wearing a dress, in my mind, was the worst thing in the world that would happen. Your teacher calls your mother saying your child will end up wearing a dress if you don’t get him into therapy right away. It gets set up as the worst thing that could possibly ever happen. So, in my mind, me wearing a dress was the worst thing that could possibly happen. I was being set up to be very successful and to achieve things — and this would ruin all of it. So I had to unlearn all that conditioning before I could really transition, and I still internalized a lot of Transphobia — I have to continue to unlearn. My work now is to really love and embrace and accept myself the way I am. The person that I feel I am — and, to always look good and all that stuff.

NOW, YOU SAY “TRANSPHOBIA” — WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

Laverne Cox: When I say “Transphobia”, I believe we live in a Transphobic culture. I think we’re all Transphobic, just like I believe that we’re all racist. Like I believe we’re all Homophobic, too. We’re all sexist. We all live in a country that valorizes sexism and, more specifically, patriarchy. We generally live in a patriarchal culture, i.e. a male-dominated culture, and women have internalized — even though a lot of women have the power to resist — we’ve internalized the idea that men are superior. That they’re going to make more money. We internalized the oppression — and to liberate ourselves, we have to free ourselves from patriarchy and the patriarchal model. For Black people, we’ve grown up with a wide spectrum of culture, right?

YES.

Laverne Cox: We grew up in a system where Blacks were devalued. So, the work for Black people is to love ourselves. We have to unlearn internalized racism. So when I say internalized Transphobia, I’m talking about something that’s systemic. That is, systemic oppression — and look at how gender roles are so strictly enforced, and how Transgender people are often thought of as aberrant and freakish. So that’s systemic. That’s something that I’ve certainly internalized because of my own personal experiences, but it’s also reinforced by the culture at large. So my work, to love myself as a Transgender person, is to unlearn all that internalized Transphobia. It’s political but it’s also psychological and emotional. For years I thought educating myself and becoming political around gender, race, sexuality and class would be a way for me to do that. So, I’ve realized for myself — because of all the childhood trauma I had — that the journey’s not just political. It’s also psychological and emotional. This is a job as well.

SO IF YOU’RE GOING TO EDUCATE THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO START WITH YOURSELF.

Laverne Cox: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I really believe internalized Transphobia is something that the Transgender community at large is not fully talking about. I think the separatist movement, where Transsex and Intersex want to separate from everybody — I think a lot of that is internalized Transphobia, and a lot of Transgender people are not doing the work to unlearn the systemic oppression that would have us hate ourselves. A lot of us aren’t doing that psychological and emotional work. I think when we don’t do that, we take it out on each other. I think the interesting thing about oppression — when we feel badly about ourselves often we take that out on other people. I think we internalize racism — oppressed people do that all the time. If you look at Black people historically, the ways in which Black people will lash out at each other — economically-oppressed Black folks will lash out at other economically-oppressed Black people. They’re not really addressing the underlying issues of their own self-hatred. It’s still not talked about enough: Self-hatred. When I talk about internalized Transphobia I’m talking about self-hatred. So for me, as a Black woman, it’s internalized Transphobia, it’s internalized racism and it’s internalized patriarchy. So, there’s a lot of work to do.

Photo courtesy of Laverne Cox

I SEE. DO YOU SEE A SILVER LINING TO THIS DARK CLOUD?

Laverne Cox: There’s a possibility of psychological and emotional healing. I think it’s really about each of us healing ourselves; each of us changing. For Transgendered people to really and fully be accepted, everybody has to rethink what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman.

UH-HUH.

Laverne Cox: When I say the oppression of the gender-binary model, that model says if you were born with a penis, you’re supposed to be masculine and identify as a man and have a whole set of behaviors and expectations based on that. If you were born with a vagina, it’s the same thing. There’s a whole set of behaviors and a course that you’re supposed to take. Most of us don’t fit into that model, right? Whether anybody’s Transgender or not. Whether we need to go to the extremes of taking hormones or having surgery or living as quote-unquote the opposite gender — most of us don’t fit neatly into that. So for me, it’s about each individual defining for him or herself what it means to be a man or a woman outside this biological imperative that if you have a penis you’re supposed to identify as a man and be masculine.

THIS IS UNCHARTED TERRITORY. I MEAN, THIS IS THE FIRST GENERATION WHERE WE FIND SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF TRANSSEXUALS —

Laverne Cox: Well, yes and no. Yes and no, George. The phenomenon is surgical and medical technology that allows the modern Transsexual — and Transsexual I’m defining as a person who’s medically transitioning; it can be pre-op, post-op or non-op —basically you’ve had a medical transition to live in your chosen gender. That’s how I’m defining Transsexuality.

OKAY.

Laverne Cox: That’s a modern phenomenon because of modern technology, but third-gender — there have been such people throughout time. Historically, if you look at indigenous Native American culture, there was a category called “two-spirits”. Are you aware of that?

YES I AM. I THINK EVERY MAJOR CULTURE EXCEPT FOR THE WHITE FOLKS HAD THAT.

Laverne Cox: Exactly. So for me, people who identify as Trans don’t fall neatly into male and female. They’ve been here throughout time. Transgender people and gender-nonconforming people have always existed. The phenomena of technology has allowed for transitions that are more inclusive in terms of living more fully in one’s gender choice and quote-unquote passing more. That’s a modern phenomena — but third-gender people are not new at all. We’ve existed since the beginning of time.

HOW IS A THIRD-GENDER PERSON DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE ELSE?

Laverne Cox: I think the biggest thing that people need to understand is that Gay and Transgender are completely different. When one is Gay, it’s about who you’re attracted to. When one is Trans, it’s about gender. It’s about how one identifies. Me identifying as a woman has nothing to do with who I’m attracted to. I could be attracted to men. I could be attracted to women. I could be attracted to both. It has nothing to do with how I identify as a woman. Absolutely nothing. Those are completely separate things. The sexual orientation — who you’re attracted to — and gender identity are two completely different things. And historically, I believe that we’re linked under the LGBT umbrella — and I think it’s problematic because Gay, Lesbian and Bisexuals have to do with who you’re attracted to, and Transgender has to do with how you identify. It’s actually a problematic umbrella, and I think that’s why a lot of Trans folks would like to separate from the LGBT umbrella. Politically and historically we are linked to Gays and Lesbians and Bisexuals — and the reason for that is because of the ways in which, historically, gender identity and sexual orientation have been equated. Historically we’re linked and politically we’re linked, right?

RIGHT.

Laverne Cox: Because patriarchy is tied to male domination, and the ideas of masculinity are tied to the idea that a man has to be masculine — and that if a man were to wear a dress, that emasculates him. Or a man getting penetrated anally —historically the man is emasculated. So, it’s becoming a woman that emasculates a man, or being penetrated anally, historically, that would emasculate him. Those things are actually very different — but ultimately they stem from this whole idea of patriarch, of this whole idea of what a man is supposed to be. That whole thing comes out of ignorance and again, the oppression of the gender-binary models by which men are to act a certain way. It’s a fucked-up history but it’s our history. So even though they’re very distinct things, if we could educate ourselves now, in the modern era, we can make those distinctions. But historically and politically, we’re linked because of that kind of oppression and ignorance.

BECAUSE WHERE ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO GO? YOU TURN TO THE MOST SIMILAR THING YOU CAN FIND. IS THAT THE CASE?

Laverne Cox: I think so. What’s interesting is that pre-Stonewall, it was illegal in New York and a lot of parts of the country to wear female clothing. You could be arrested — and they’d raid Gay bars, and if you were wearing female clothes you’d be arrested. It’s all mixed up but really, I mean, they’re really very different things. There’s a lot of Trans men who identify as Heterosexual and Trans women who identify as Heterosexual. We don’t have anything to do with the Gay or Lesbian community — and I understand that.

WELL, THERE’S A LOT OF POLITICS AT PLAY HERE, ISN’T THERE?

Laverne Cox: I’m talking very theoretically. Ultimately, when you talk about gender, it’s a political thing because Transgendered folks are really disenfranchised. There’s issues around discrimination in public accommodations, hate crimes et cetera. Transgendered folks are really disenfranchised across the country. And all the ignorance and the violence — I mean, I’ve personally experienced violence, and other Trans friends of mine experienced it. You know, we live in a really hostile world. If you transgress what folks think a woman should be, you are punished. The system punishes folks who transgress.

YES IT DOES.

Laverne Cox: Every year, hundreds of Transgendered people are murdered just because they’re Transgendered. All over the country; all over the world.

IT MUST TAKE A LOT OF COURAGE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET BEING WHAT YOU ARE —

Laverne Cox: It absolutely does. For me, sometimes I think, “Oh yeah, Transgendered people are brave” — but I do know that I was in so much pain trying to be something I wasn’t. Trying to fit this sort of thing that didn’t work for me was more painful. I really didn’t have a choice. I personally didn’t have a choice. A lot of folks will say I chose this — whatever. The choice for me really was like, do I want to kill myself or do I want to figure out a way where I can be happy and like and accept myself? Those were really the options. How do I figure out a way to like being in the world and feel integrated and feel whole and like myself — and that’s really what my journey has been about, is becoming more authentically myself. This is what it’s really about.

YOU’VE WRITTEN ABOUT THE VARIOUS LEVELS OF STATUS THAT ARE ASCRIBED TO DIFFERENT FOLKS IN OUR SOCIETY, AND THE HISTORICAL DEVALUATION OF BLACK WOMEN —

Laverne Cox: It’s really interesting because as a Black woman dating — Black women have the least chance of getting married of any group or race of women. There was a very unscientific study that looked at race and how people were attracted to each other and who was responding to whom et cetera, and Black women were the least in demand for all races of women — and there’s been a lot of statistics saying that Black women are less desired, sexually and in terms of partnership, than other races of women. So, there’s that — and then there’s adding Trans to that. It makes dating very difficult. I think being a Black actress, too — it’s still rough. There’s a lot of diverse Black female representation out there, but it’s still really rough for a Black actress in the entertainment industry. I think that’s what I was talking about — when you’re a Black woman, you’re not the most-valued kind of femininity or most-valued kind of a woman in our culture. Because I’m Trans, there’s the hypersexualization of Black women that accompanies that — but also the hyper-sexualization of the Black male that accompanies that in people’s imaginations. All these assumptions about Black male prowess et cetera projected onto Black Trans women — I’ve experienced that, attempting to date, with people’s perceptions.

I SEE.

Laverne Cox: It’s funny — I hear it all the time. I had a meeting with an executive at a TV network and we were talking and she was like, “I can’t believe you’re single.” A lot of people tell me they can’t believe I’m single — but I’ve been single for five years. I’ve dated a lot, but as a Transgender woman, my experience is: most men do not want to be in a relationship with a Transsexual woman. They want to sexually objectify us, and that’s about it. Most of the men who are sexually attracted to Transgender women are in the closet about it. I think that there’s a big misconception that men who are attracted to Trans women must be Gay. This is my experience. The Gay men I’ve encountered are not attracted to Transgender women at all. Gay men are attracted to other men. So, it’s actually Straight–identified — I like the term “Straight-identified men” as opposed to “Straight” because sexual orientation is more fluid than Gay and Straight. Straight-identified men who are attracted to Trans women, they’re in the closet about that because there’s a stigma about being attracted to Transgendered women — because, again, of the gender-binary model of the expectation of quote-unquote Straight-identified men, and liking women who were born women or a woman who does not have a penis. If a Straight man likes a woman who has a penis, that must make him Gay in the imagination of the oppression of the gender-binary model. For me, it’s been very difficult. Maybe I’m a little picky, too, but I don’t feel like I should settle. I mean, I’ve been on a lot of dates, a lot of first dates, a lot of second dates — and I haven’t had an official boyfriend in five years. It’s hard. I have moments, but I’m like, “God, this dating thing is hard” and then I get depressed about it. I get really depressed about it. Everybody wants someone to love them and everybody gets lonely as a human being.

YES THEY DO.

Laverne Cox: I didn’t transition to get a man. I didn’t. I transitioned to be true to myself. So, if the trade-off is that I’m maybe not going to have someone special in my life — then that’s the way it is. If it’s meant to be, I do believe it will happen.

WE’RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT, IN A WAY. DATING’S HARD FOR EVERYBODY.

Laverne Cox: Dating’s hard for everybody. Everybody has these issues.

YOU GOTTA JUST STICK WITH YOUR HIGH-SCHOOL SWEETHEART —

Laverne Cox: If you had a high-school sweetheart.

DID YOU HAVE A HIGH-SCHOOL SWEETHEART?

Laverne Cox: No. There was a man — when I was a junior in high school, there was a man that I met in Birmingham, in the city. He was like twenty-seven years old. He was a P.E. teacher and a Little League coach. We sort of dated-slash-went out when I was in high school — and he was really the only guy, and I thought I was in love with him. It started a pattern for me of being with men who were closeted — that started very early for me. One relationship I’ve been in, I think the only reason it lasted as long as it did was because he never had any issues with me being Trans or everyone knowing I was Trans.

I SEE.

Laverne Cox: It ended badly. He hit on a friend of mine and it was awful. I was heartbroken. I’ve generally been heartbroken by men.

SOME GALS ARE TOO TOUGH AND TOO STRONG FOR GUYS. THEY CAN BE VERY INTIMIDATING —

Laverne Cox: Well, I have no idea. You’d have to talk to guys. I would love to have no-holds-barred interviews with some of the men I’ve gone out with on first and second dates, and get their view. I wonder if a lot of women think this. You go out with the guy, you feel like there’s chemistry — and then you never hear from him again, and you wonder what you did wrong. I used to wonder that a lot. What did I do wrong? And I have to remind myself that it’s not me, it’s them. I had two really great dates. Probably this is five years ago, when I became single. This guy — he was awesome, and I thought we had a connection and chemistry — and then he just disappeared off the face of the Earth. So, two, two-and-a-half years later, he saw me on a dating site. It’s easier to be clear about the Trans thing when you Internet date. It’s trickier out in the world. Although I just do it and it’s fine. But anyway, he wrote me and he apologized and said he was going through a difficult time in his life and it wasn’t a good time for him to date. I’ve gotten that a lot from men. It wasn’t me, it’s just they weren’t ready — or sometimes men think they are ready for a relationship, are ready to date someone seriously — and they realize they’re not. I’ve gotten a lot of that. Or an ex-girlfriend comes around. It’s rarely me. Although on one date I went on — god, I’m just going on — but I asked the guy out. I met this guy on the Internet. We met and first of all, he didn’t look anything like his picture and he had a dreadful accent and he was really boring and he was from Europe. Some Europeans I love and some I can’t really deal with — and he was one I couldn’t deal with. So, we were talking for awhile and then we got into a cab. We were going to go to another place that was quieter, and then we get out of the taxi and I was like, “Oh my god, this is awful. How do I get out of this?” He said to me, “You know what? This isn’t what I expected. I’m just going to call it a night.” I was like, “Oh, thank god” — and I left. And I was like, “This is great” and then I was like, “Wait a minute. I know I don’t like you but why don’t you like me?” So I asked him, what was the issue? What was the problem? He said to me — I don’t know if he was being honest or not — but what he said to me is that you are very artsy and expressive and that’s not what I was expecting and that doesn’t really work for me — but I think you’re hot and I would sleep with you.

WELL, THERE’S A CANDID REPLY FOR YOU.

Laverne Cox: It felt pretty candid to me. He was being honest that he would sleep with me, he said. There’s very few men that I meet who really want to date me and have me in their lives. I think I’m a pretty cool chick. I’m challenging and I’m complicated. I’m not a simple chick but I think I’m pretty cool. So yeah, I don’t know. I try to be a good person. I try to listen. I’m not perfect.

WELL, YOU’RE WORKING ON IT —

Laverne Cox: Exactly. And lots of therapy. I believe in it.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE FUTURE. IN YEARS TO COME, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE PLACE IN SOCIETY OF FOLKS LIKE YOURSELF?

Laverne Cox: Oh gosh, I don’t know. I want to do as much as I can to facilitate social change — in particular, the way that Trans folks are represented in the media. But I don’t believe it’s going to happen in my lifetime. I really don’t. I think the change that needs to happen — the full-scale gender revolution — it’s probably going to take a couple of generations for that to happen. So, my overall goal is to focus on my work.

YOU WERE ON LAW & ORDER —

Laverne Cox: Law & Order, Law & Order SVU, Bored To Death —

WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE ROLE THEY GAVE YOU ON LAW & ORDER?

Laverne Cox: I played a prostitute — and what’s interesting is that historically, especially for Black Trans women, we’re cast as prostitutes. So, my whole thing about prostitution and the sex industry is that it’s a shame the stereotype is that all Trans women are in the sex industry. I’m not in the sex industry. I know a lot of Trans women who aren’t, but those are the roles being written. That’s part of the reason that I started producing — because I didn’t want to be playing hookers on Law & Order for the rest of my career.

I SEE.

Laverne Cox: So, I think it’s a problematic stereotype — but I also think sex work is a reality of the lives for a lot of Trans women. I think it’s important to talk about it in a way where we say this is a reality for a lot of Trans women. If someone’s going to play a sex worker — I’d rather it actually be a Transgendered person. A man in Drag or a non-Trans woman playing the role — if you think about it historically, and if you think about blackface, you want to equate blackface with non-Transgendered people playing Transgendered people. We’re at the very early stages of real Transgendered people being out there. And Reality TV has been a great vehicle for real Transgender people having a voice to tell their stories the human way, on television.

SO TRANSGENDERED FOLKS ARE STARTING TO MAKE THEIR MARK ON THE WORLD?

Laverne Cox: Exactly — actual Trans folks are making a mark in media and having their voices heard and being able to tell their own stories — and there’s a lot of examples of that. Do we need more? Absolutely. We need a lot more. We have a lot of stories that get told over and over again. A lot of the representation seems to focus on our transition, but rarely do they focus on what our lives are like after we’ve transitioned. There’s so much focus on surgery. Another issue I have: Usually when people hear that you’re Transgender, the first thing that they ask is: “Does that mean you’ve had the surgery? Have you had the surgery?” The people immediately go to the genitals. They just immediately go to what is between your legs. I think that is a product of the oppression of the gender-binary model. The gender-binary model determines that if you have a penis, you’re a man and if you have a vagina, you’re a woman — and that is way too simplistic. I think that model needs to be rethought. We know that historically, so-called Straight men have had sex with men. So, sexual orientation is not neatly wrapped up into Gay, Straight and bi. Gender is not, either. We’ll begin to think differently about what a man is and what a woman is. It’s not about what’s between your legs. It’s not about your chromosomes. It’s not about your reproductive organs. It’s about who you are as a human being. Also, it’s important to distinguish between biological sex and gender. Gender varies from culture to culture. Different cultures have different gender roles. So, me being a woman in America — that’s going to take on certain ways of presenting oneself. The protocol in the world might be different. Biology’s important in terms of health and just being well et cetera. Biology is not destiny.

IT’S A VERY COMPLICATED WORLD WE’RE IN, AIN’T IT?

Laverne Cox: It is. When I do these interviews and I do media stuff, I try not to get so theoretical. I think it’s easier for me to get theoretical than it is to talk about my feelings and my emotions around gender. But a lot of it’s theoretical, really. At the end of the day, I’m just Laverne.

WELL, YOUR THEORIES SOUND WELL-FORMULATED.

Laverne Cox: Thank you. Thank you.

THIS TRANSGENDER WORLD — IT’S A WORK IN PROGRESS, ISN’T IT?

Laverne Cox: Yeah

YOU MUST GET ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT YOU DON’T LIKE, I WOULD IMAGINE —

Laverne Cox: It depends. The only questions I don’t answer publicly are my age and what surgeries I’ve had. The age thing is because I’m an actress — and then the surgery thing, I find I feel objectified by that. It reduces the person to a surgery. If you have a certain genitalia, you are a man or you are a woman, or whatever. I don’t want to buy into that by answering the question. I believe with that question there are assumptions. We really, ideally, should not be asking that question. Ultimately, that’s for my lover or my doctor to know — because we have the right to employment, nondiscrimination, and living my life happily. It has nothing to do with what’s between my legs. Most people don’t interact with that. You know what I mean?

YES.

Laverne Cox: It really has nothing to do with that. It’s really about how I present myself in the world and who I think I am and how I’m perceived.

AND YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY. I MEAN, STRAIGHT PEOPLE AREN’T REQUIRED TO SHOW THEIR GENITALIA TO STRANGERS. WHY SHOULD YOU BE?

Laverne Cox: Well, I think the thing is: People assume. If someone is presenting as a man — if we look at someone and we see a man — we assume that they have a penis. Transgender people challenge that assumption. I firmly believe that people do not want that belief challenged. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the world, and people want the idea of a man and a woman to be absolute — and the presence of Transgender people makes that not absolute and creates anxiety in people. It begins to make them question — “Well, what does this make me?” Particularly men, when they’re attracted to Trans women: “Well, does this mean I’m Gay, and what does this mean about me?” People have to ask questions about themselves when they’re confronted with someone who is challenging their assumption about what it means to be a man or a woman — and people do not want to ask themselves questions about who they are. I think that’s really the issue that we face in society. If we can get people to not have anxiety or assume that gender is absolute, then I think the gender question will be solved.

INTERESTING. OKAY — IS THERE ANYTHING MORE THAT YOU WANT TO ADD?

Laverne Cox: Hi mom. My mom always wants me to say hi when I’m on TV. I don’t say her name: I just say, “Hi mom.” She’s like, “You don’t say my mom is Gloria Cox from Mobile, Alabama” — and she always wants me to say that.

ALRIGHT. CAN WE PUT THAT IN THE BOOK?

Laverne Cox: Sure.

HELLO TO GLORIA COX OF MOBILE, ALABAMA.

Laverne Cox: For now, I think that that’s all. ~